Gaslighting - What does that mean? Do you even know if it's happening to you?

Hello, and welcome to Our Podcast being effing honest, I'm Jennifer Wong. And I'm Charity Rodrigues. We invite you into our conversations about everyday issues experienced by everyday people. We share our stories with honesty and humor, hoping to bring people together in community by showing how vulnerability can deepen bonds when done with kindness and non judgment. We know it's tough, so we'll go ahead and go first

hello, hello, Jennifer.

Hello, charity, and welcome to everybody that's listening. Thank you for listening and subscribing and giving your feedback it is giving us the fuel to keep going and keep being effing honest. So thank you, everybody.

I feel like you need a cowbell. And so I know Maddie because we hit I think we hit like 300 downloads or 300 like to celebrate that with you. So I'd really like we're getting there people were getting there. It's exciting. Okay, but now, let us begin. In this episode, we're going to share our respective experiences with what today is called gaslighting. On a 10 years ago, you would have asked me about gaslighting. I don't know what you're talking about, but now it's pretty prevalent. There's a name to it. There's 1000s and millions of experiences of people that have dealt with this. But let me I want to define it first. Okay, so the Merriam Webster Dictionary defines gaslighting as psychological manipulation of a person, usually over an extended period of time, that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories, and typically leads to confusion, loss of competence and self esteem, and certainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetuator. That is pretty intense.

Events, and it's so it's like the silent little killer to because you don't really know what's happening until it's almost too late. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

So, Jennifer, you are gonna get us, you know, start off because you wrote a blog about a blog post about it. And well, first of all, I just want to know, like, what prompted you to write this like, Well, what was going on? What happened?

Oh, my gosh, I really don't know. So, this week was a crazy week, my daughter moved out of the house, and she went to college. And it's a good thing. And I'm so excited for her. But I was really sad too, because she's not only my daughter, but we were really close. And we hang out and we do stuff together. So I was sad. And then I found out one of my friends is transitioning right now. And so I was filled with a lot of grief. And usually when I get into grief, I start looking at things and I start meditating. And I did and I got into this meditation. And then at 1130, at night, I was looking at images on probably, I don't know, some social media site, and I saw that gaslighting picture. And all of a sudden, it just prompted me to write that post. So I posted briefly about how it was covert and insidious. But what I realized and what came out of that was three years after being out of that relationship, how much my life has expanded and how good I feel in my body again. I was kind of tripping out really because I thought, wow, I really feel good about myself and I can't believe how I did not feel good about myself for almost a decade. Crazy.

Tell us what happened. Mike, can you tell us the story can you share?

So I do have a story and it's gonna lean into that and and there's a second part so I wrote that post at like 1130 at night. Okay, send it off. Okay, went to bed. Woke up the next morning and this was my dream. I was so disturbed that I could hardly breathe. I thought I don't know. I don't get it. So, in my dream I was at a a shooting range and I was learning how to shoot a rifle. And the man that was teaching me was a beautiful man of color. And he was big. And I had just been watching the legacy of the Lakers on Hulu. And so the man, his body structure reminded me of Magic Johnson now is basically what it looked like, but it wasn't. So he hands me this rifle. And then he goes and sits at a desk like a desk in school, about 15 feet in front of me, with his back to me, and then to the left of him is a 12 by 12, Bullseye. Okay, and I'm looking going, I'm going to shoot this guy, I'm not even very good, is he going to teach me what's going on. And I pick up the rifle and the triggers, like super touchy, and it just starts going off, and then it's a semi automatic. So three shots go to the left of the bullseye. And I'm thinking, Oh, thank God, I didn't shoot him. But it just keeps shooting. And I shoot him in the back five times, three in the back to in the head in the back of the head, and I am freaking out. I, the whole time I'm just staring at my jaw is open. I am so shocked. I don't know what to do. I can't believe I just shot a man like all these feelings are going through me. And then I look at the bullet holes. And I could see all the way through to the white wall in front. And I know that one went through his heart, and I'm just thinking, I just killed a man, I just killed a man. So I run up to the desk. And as I'm running thoughts are going through my head and I have this vision of me signing an affidavit that sign signing my name saying this was all my fault. Then I get to him and I'm thinking why is no one calling 911. And when I get to him, he turns to me, and he's a different man now, and he's got kind of an afro and he's really skinny. And he's got his dukes up and he's ready to punch me in the face. And I am going I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Go ahead hit me I deserve it. And then I woke up. I was so freaked out that I shot a person. I could not get over it. So I journaled about it. Then I talked to a couple friends about it and maybe three hours later it finally hit me. That was narcissism that was full. Gasol gaslighting, like, who gives you a gun when you don't know how to use it and then sits right in front of you and says, okay, don't shoot me. It was like a full setup, right? I there was no way I wasn't going to shoot him. Yeah, no way. And then he and then like, I'm signing an affidavit saying yes, it's all my fault. That's one of the things in in gaslighting, they want to make sure that you believe it's all your fault. And then I was willing to take a punch because I deserved it. It was complete ly reminiscent of what I went through in that gaslighting relationship. It was crazy. It was amazing. And then I thought about it like all week, and a few days later, I thought, but if I was empowered, I would have never shot the gun. I would have said, There's no way I'm shooting a gun with you sitting there, okay? There's no way I would have entered into that whole quagmire of guilt and blame and shame and just utter death, you know. And so I thought great, I've was given this image so that I don't repeat it. You know, and maybe a little bit was, you know, gassing off gaslighting getting rid of some of that that's still in me. And so this week, I really started studying more about gaslighting itself. And I was listening to a podcast and read a blog by Tanya Melanie Evans. And she goes all the way back to like 2012. She's been doing this forever. And it helped me to really understand a lot more of why I let it happen. Because I think I'm a really strong person. I have done so much in my world in my life. I've done so many things that I believe I am a strong person. And it finally hit me I was meditating the other day and it hit me. I had this image of I have two spheres around my body one is about six inches away from my heart and then everything outside of that, and I'm really strong six inches out of my heart and outward, really strong. Okay, but the six inches away from my heart to my heart. Very weak. I was very weak because that to me that six inches between my heart out is my self, my self love my self worth myself The steam. You know, I, I think I, in the past before I met that person, I was working on everything on the outside of me. I was working on how to be courageous outside of me based on what other people thought was courageous and strong. It wasn't that I worked on, you know, do I love myself? Do I trust myself? Do I feel worthy of receiving and giving love? Do I feel worthy of setting boundaries? Do I feel worthy of standing up and saying no, this is not okay. Now, because I wanted, because I lacked my own self love. I was looking for it from outside of me, right? If I portray this image of strength and goodness, people will love me and then I'll be fulfilled. Didn't even think I need to love myself.

You want that validation of others? Yeah,

subconsciously. Just that's the way I was raised. That's the way it went. That's my conditioning. didn't even see it.

Even though,

when I met him, I had been doing all this personal work for like, who actually when I met him, I'd only been on my personal journey about three years. Okay, so not very long. And I don't even think I had gotten to the really loving myself part. So I was still open. Yeah. But that was my huge awakening this week about narcissism, gaslighting, and it isn't about giving them power, because the more I learned about gaslighting this week, narcissists have created a false self, because they have absolutely no self love, no self worth, they feel ineffectual. They feel they cannot take care of themselves. And so they create this false self that's totally ego based. And the only way they can feel alive is when they take the food from somebody else. So when they create chaos, and somebody else looks like they're in pain, that's the only time they feel validated and alive. I was like, Oh, my God. No wonder, no wonder,

I was reading up on that. And one of the things that it had described about the gas lighters, and they're also considered narcissists, right. Like, that was one of the definition, gas lighters are narcissists. And one of the things that came that came up to describe them is that they lack empathy, and they are unwilling to identify with the needs of others. It just like when you were saying, the you know that they get that higher when they cause trauma and drama, and it's just like, oh, yeah, I met a person like that, or I had a person like that involved. But you don't like that just seems like such a ridiculous thing. Like, who feeds off of other people's trauma? Like who gets excited? You know, like, that's just like, No, that's not what's going on here. Surely it has to be something else. Like, surely, it has to be something that I'm doing, because that's just the most ridiculous thing. That's my thinking. But that's not and the other thing that was coming up was, this is this is under mental illness. And narcissists is under mental illness. So it's not just a little game that people do to entertain themselves, like, there's a mental illness taking place with that individual, whether they acknowledge it or not, whether they, you know, the see or not, it is under that kick, because those behaviors are not normal. Right? It may be for them, but it's their world, but it's not normal.

And I agree, I think it is mental illness and i i actually have more compassion for it. Understanding it that way, and thinking, especially knowing the relationship I was in in the person. I saw what happened to him growing up. I saw it, it was just perpetuated, you know, it was clear, but I didn't see any of that till I finally woke up. I was in it for a long, long time. My world got so so small. I didn't. I didn't have friends that I would go do things with. I didn't. I didn't feel like I had deep connections. I had friends that I would just bitch about him. And then I got sick of hearing myself. And I quit talking about it. Because I wasn't doing anything about it. I didn't know what to do and I didn't understand it. Instead, my world just got really small because it was taking up 90% of my Energy, you know, my, what I was thinking how I was feeling. And I didn't want to talk about it anymore. So what else was there? What else was left? You know, just barely taking care of the kids. Always trying to avoid chaos. That was my main goal in life every day was how can I manipulate my day so that I don't have to listen to the barrage of guilt and anger and frustration? It was every day, it was every day, if we went two days without it, I'd be like, Oh, how do we get a couple breaths, and then boom, we were right back in it. It was insane.

This start like from the onStart. Like, was it from the beginning of no ship? Like it was a slow, gradual.

It started when my daughter was born. Like, literally, the week she was born, I saw this huge shift, I was bedridden after my baby was born. And I couldn't do much because I had really high blood pressure. So it was just me and the screaming baby in the bed. And he came in one day to, I think, empty the trash cans. And I looked at him and I just panicked. Like, I felt this total. And I just looked at him and I said, What is going on? He's all What are you talking about? And I said, Who are you right now? Like, where did you go what happened? And he was, and then it started, you're dramatic. You're overdramatic, you're always looking for things that are wrong. You don't ever look at the good. And he just, I remember him walking all the way around the bedroom, telling me all the things I was doing wrong. And I felt my stomach just fall to the floor. i It was terrifying. And I couldn't figure out what had happened. And I think it was overwhelming for him to have a child. He had told me I never want to have children. And then we had a child. And it was actually it was kind of a we call it a blessing in disguise. I wasn't We weren't planning on it. But then he really, really, really wanted me to have it. And then I got on board. So it was a kind of a really odd mixture of things for me to say, what was real and what wasn't real. And it just took me by surprise. I but I knew the moment it started.

But he said he did not want to have children. Then you surprise got pregnant. And then there's a shift of Yeah, let's do this. I don't really want to like what was? Did they explain why they now we're like, let's have a baby. If all those time No.

Oh, because it was the right thing to do. Because it was the right thing to do. Then the religious card was pulled.

Oh, okay. Okay. But up into that point. Why did they not want to have telogen? Was there any reasoning like was it going to hamper the wild, fun, exciting lifestyle? Was it they didn't feel parental was that they couldn't, you know, the idea of having a screaming baby just wasn't in the car with it changing? You know,

I asked and like I asked a lot of questions in that relationship. The response was, I don't know. Because that person really didn't know. And now that I look back, I don't think he could look at it. If he was to look at his own lack of self empowerment, it would destroy him. It would have destroyed him. If he looked at his own ineffectual ality you know, his inability to handle things. It would destroy him to this day, he overcompensates to prove that he can handle things, which is the behavior, I don't want to sound like a victim at all, because what I have learned from this is he is a master teacher for me, because he showed me where I need to grow in my own person in my own being. Because if I was not subject to that amount of discomfort, I don't think I would have really looked at my own self worth. He gave me an opportunity to look at where I really need to grow. Because it would never happen if I truly loved myself felt confident at self esteem. Had self love you know, all those things. It wouldn't it would have never like it will never happen now.

What did you want from this relationship with this individual? Like what were you hoping was going to happen? Because you had insight? Right? You had insight about yourself and but this person was not. Do you think You were thinking, we're on the same plane and then you didn't notice until later that Nope, he's not.

I felt trapped. So when we when I got pregnant, it was makeup sex. We were I was always already planning to end the relationship. And we had a bunch of breakups get back togethers for few months, leading to me getting pregnant. So then once I got pregnant, I felt it was the right thing for me to do to make it work. So what I wanted out of it was I really wanted us to get long. Okay, I really did. We did so much work. We did so much couples therapy, couples retreats, 12 Step work, we did it all. But the problem was we never talked about gaslighting. So we never got to the root of it. I think it was actually when I learned about gaslighting from another good friend of mine. And I didn't even go into it as much as I took this last week. I just saw a few blogs from Melanie Tania Evans. And I went, Oh my God. That's what's going on here. Oh, my God. And that was all I needed. And I think within six months, I ended the relationship. That was it. It was over. But I just didn't even know because I was like, There's no way that's happening me. I'm way too strong to let that happen.

Right. Right. Right. But okay, so here's the thing, because with gaslighting, the narcissist, the abuser, the perpetuator says and does things that people are saying to you. Why are you so defensive? Or saying like, you're over at overreacting, like it's not a big deal? And so you go, Oh, yeah, okay, well, yeah, maybe, maybe, am I RBF? Yeah, sure, maybe. And then you take that, like, they're throwing it back on you. And you walk off with that wondering like, what can I do? What should I do, you know? Or they'll say things and I saw this, I have that image that you post and I was just like, oh my gosh, yes. Why are you upset? I was only kidding. Or, Oh, you're just imagining things. Or, and this is the kicker, the one that I'm just like, ah, and I hate it when people say this is You're so sensitive.

Yes. Yep.

So you were being told things that weren't? Yeah, it's hard to see through that. It's hard to go we you start like you said,

well, and I love that you said that? Because one of them is there you go again. Yes. That was a big one. And he's to say, just in Jennifer fashion. This is so Jennifer fashion. Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Like I had my own way. That was just awful, apparently. Yeah. And, and because I was trying so hard to do whatever it would take to keep it together for my girls. I just kept bending, but what I was doing was just burying myself further and further. I just kept taking away my power more and more hoping that at some level, we would get along. Yeah, all I wanted was for a skin long. I thought, because I did love him. I mean, I did love him. And I think to this day, I can say I still do. I do love him. He's the father of my child. And there was a point in time when I really did. I mean, we didn't come together out of this. It didn't start like this. So I, I do I do have a place in my heart for him. In fact, he had a surfing accident a few months ago, and I was really concerned for him. And I felt sad. I really did. So I know that I do love him. I'm not in love with him. But I was hoping that it would come back at some point. I really was. And you know, here's another thing. So I posted that on our Instagram page. Yeah. And then I posted it also on my personal Facebook page. And I had a friend that I haven't talked to since high school, reach out and tell me on instant message, how he appreciated my post. And it was odd because he had just found out that a friend of his had taken her life after the same like it sounded like the same situation she was in is what he was saying he doesn't know for sure. But he said her Facebook posts were very aligned with what I had written. And then I think her last post that he sent me a picture of was something like I used to be a human now I'm just a thing. And I just cried I live literally cried because I know what it's like to be so low. There were so many times what I thought I can't get out of this. I can't it's, it's either me and I'm such a piece of lint that I don't even think my kids would mind. If I died, he would just take over and everything would be fine. I had that thought grows, it's like, yeah, to even say that right now is like disgusting to me. But I believed it. I believed it, there was a period of time where I believe that, like, if I just died, although I would never, I don't have that I was thinking I would just move to Europe, and never come back. That was more like my thoughts, because I've just, I'm too cowardly to ever kill myself. But I really thought if I wasn't in their life, they don't need me. That's how low I was. That was my rock bottom.

Did your did your children see this? Did they see the effect? Or have you ever? That one is older? So maybe you were able to talk more with her? But what do you think the interaction between the two of you how was that affecting your children?

It was completely affecting them. And my little one is knows no other way. And my older one, we were all kind of in this energy of repression. You know, we were being tamped down. Don't talk too loud, don't get out of line. Because as soon as you did, it was absolute chaos. And you were told what a total piece of shit you were. And i My heart hurts for my older daughter, because I saw him do things to her that, you know, I would fight back and then it would be like weeks of horror, but I couldn't let it go. And for example, one time she had a sinus infection. Okay. I am and we're very natural. And it was so bad that I took her to the doctor, she got antibiotics, and she was on antibiotics. And she came home from the doctor's appointments so tired. She just sat on the couch in the living room. He was at the table in the dining room. And she was just laying there and we had just walked in and he goes, Really, you're gonna sit on that couch right now and get everybody sick. And she just looked at him and she went and I was like, Really, that's totally uncalled for. And I just walked her upstairs, you know, it was like, just get out of his way, because he's just gonna go off. It was that kind of pressure all the time. It was nuts. And I think the final one was, my older daughter had a job. And then she got off work, I think 1030 home by 11. And I was always up late working. And so she came in and we were talking about her day having a nice time. And he was already in bed. She got in the shower, because she got off work, was taking a shower, and he gets up and starts banging on the door saying you need to get out of the shower. It's too late to take a shower. And I was I was aghast. I was beside myself. And I just said, What are you doing? Go to bed. She just got off work. She can take a shower. She's not hurting anybody? Well, it's loud. And it's keeping me up well, too bad. And then he went on about how I'm a horrible mother. And I always take her side. And I'm a terrible mother for showing her that we're not a united front. And I said I can't be united with irrational behavior. I can't. And he just kept going and going and going. And then I said, we're done. And then my older daughter actually finally had it. And she had a she never has yelled at anybody or cursed at anybody in her entire life. Yeah. She fully went off on him. And I wasn't around. I didn't see it. But she told me about it. And it was like literally the week before I told him I wanted to divorce. So are my kids affected? 100% which is that's a hard one. My little one is very much affected. And so that was another podcast episode that I listened to about how to you know what to do with your children? Yeah, who have a parent that is a gaslighter. And you don't even get to see them, you know, and there, she told some stories where mine is nowhere near the awfulness that could occur. And but her solution was really to get in that space of my own heart and to shift how I feel and that's the only way it will shift. She said there is nothing you can do or say to change a gaslight nothing other than having your own self worth your own self love. And it's more than even just setting boundaries like there's this energy you have to have with it. So it was it was Just a really big, enlightening thing. And she gave examples of her clients that were in terrible, dire hopeless situations that when they shifted their own energy, it it changed, the relationship changed.

But how did you get into that space? How did you carve out, you know what the shield, whatever you need it to go enough is enough or I'm out of here or whatever.

I think it was my friends. It was definitely my community, I had a fellowship and the 12 step program, I was an Al Anon at the time. And I had a great group of women there. And an Al Anon is where I learned boundaries, like big time, huge. And I also learned about a power greater than myself. So you know, it's not religious, but just the idea that there's something greater that loves us and holds us and has this divine perfection about it. So I had really use that. And then I had a couple girlfriends that I loved them so much, they really helped me and it was through them, allowing me to keep talking and to boost me up and making the decision. And I needed someone to tell me that I was not a bad person for making this decision. I needed it because I didn't have it enough inside myself. So I had enough close people to really help me through and in all honesty, when it comes down to it, I just think that that was my path. I don't think that there was anything that I personally did on my own. To do that I needed my community and I needed spirit. And I think that was just it, you know, like they say, by the grace of God, that happened for me. Why didn't it happen for this woman that just took her life? I don't know,

you know, right. Yeah.

So I just feel really fortunate. And that's why I'm sharing this because I want to hopefully, by sharing my story, somebody hears it gets something out of it that might help them. I don't know. But that's why I share the story. Not to bad mouth, anybody but

no, no, no, we're just trying to, you know, this is your story. And we're trying to shine a light on these are real experiences, these are real things that are happening, when everybody goes behind their door of their apartment, their house, whatever. This is what's going on sometimes, you know, it's not just everybody, Jake, cooking dinner and game night. And, you know, everyone's out together working on a project. It's these are the daily life realities that we're having to deal with. And then you have to deal with life outside of that. And so we need to talk about it, we need to just bring light about it. Because maybe you'll recognize yourself in this story, maybe you'll not know you're not have a name for what you're going through. But you know that what you're going through? That's not right. It shouldn't be happening that way. People that you love, trust, have competence and should not be treating you in that manner. And it may not be physical abuse, but that is mental, emotional, psychological, you know, however, that is still abuse, that is trauma that is creating drama. So yeah, that's just okay, what now you've been sending me a bunch of resources, though. So you have used this resources after the fact or you use the resources during There was one lady that you mentioned that you looked at, and you identified with her stories,

right, Melanie? Tania Evans, yeah. Okay, she was brought to me by a friend. And that gave me the awareness. And I got out. And then when this all came up again, this week, I really started listening to her blog. And it's been helpful because I'm still working on this journey with my younger daughter who's 11 on what I can do, you know, and in this fight in this, you know, I'm just like, I got to stand up, I got to stand up, because as a person that's just getting my self confidence and self esteem. I feel that I need to stand up now. But I still believe there's going to be a grounded way to do it. But yeah, she's a great resource. She's a really good resource.

Okay. Okay. And whatever resource works for

you. No, yeah, it's got to resonate,

like Yeah, exactly. Has to resonate and definitely need to keep searching and because it's a pretty intense situation to have to do with is very intense. And how do you feel now?

I feel good. I mean, I feel fabulous. I was You know, my friendships have gotten so much better. I have new friends. It's amazing. It's like, I moved to this new area, and I love my neighbors, we have game night that would have never ever happened before. Not on my own accord. I couldn't, I didn't feel I was I don't know what it is, I can't even tell you. It's so subconscious. But now I go out and I meet my neighbors and we talk I invite Him in, I'm not ashamed, you know, the house feels good. I have a place that I can rest I don't, I'm not in constant stress it, my body has gotten healthier to my energy, I am amazed at how much energy I have. If I only sleep six or five hours, I still get through the day. Whereas before, no way I was dragging, dragging, dragging, it is amazing how much energy I have gotten back. Like I even got some of my own energy back because they take it, it's their food, you know, other people's energy is their food. And so I just had none. It was like, I would wake up, deplete it. And now I wake up, well, I don't, I just was noticing that this week, like I wake up, I like ready to go, I don't need coffee, I don't need nothing. Like I can just go it's such a crazy difference.

It's energy wellness Spirit coming internally, you don't need an external device, during whatever to keep you going. It's all generated from your spirit, if you will.

And I actually during like, in this last month, it's been crazy. I see an intuitive reader once in a while and she's amazing. I love her so much and what

an intuitive reader. It is.

So she uses her intuition to kind of look at my energy and give me another perspective. So that's why I go to an intuitive reader. They've also been known as psychics, but she's not a psychic. Okay. And she just helps expand my perspective on things that I'm working through. And you know, it's always take what you like, leave the rest. And some of it doesn't resonate. And some of it does. Okay. And one of the things that she brought up was, you are, you know, she read my energy, and it was, you are doing really, really good right now you have cleaned up a lot, you've healed a lot, which was validation, because that's what I had felt. I had actually gone to ask her for clarity around this podcast. And my writing was really why went which was awesome, because instead of going about a man, or my kids something outside of me, it was stuff I love. So that was a big whoo in in itself. Not that I rely on these readers very much. I only maybe do it like twice a year, three times a year. Like I don't go all the time. But anyway. Okay. Okay. What she said was, you are in such a good place. And there's one little piece that when this gets better, I guarantee you, your life is going to change so much. It is going to be so vibrant and amazing and fulfilling. like nothing you've ever known before. And I said what is that she said the self love piece. It's better, it's way better than it's ever been. But you still can grow there and I go, I probably will the rest of my life. I'm in agreement with her on that. I have gotten better, too. I'm in agreement with that. So she gave me this self love mantra and this little thing to do. And she said I am so sure that if you do this for 30 days, and you do it, that I'll give you a complimentary reading. I was like ooh, that's she's pretty sure and and so I have I'm I have two more days and it'll be 30 days. Okay. So how'd I do? I feel amazing.

Feel it. You feel the my feeling

I feel so much. Yeah, you have to feel it you don't just say it you have to look in the mirror and you have to really feel it I even on my my altar behind me I put pictures of my little one like when I was seven so that I can look at her and I want to love on her like I would my own children. And that has been a huge piece to build that self love. I've been doing inner child work forever. But you know, it takes time. You know, time builds. There's no one and done. There's no one and done. I was telling my friend the only the other day there's only two one and done things. One is drugs. You take a drug. Yeah, you get your response, but it's temporary. The other one is trauma, like childhood trauma happen. All it needs. All you need is to have it once it's in your subconscious. You're done. You come around and figure it out. But otherwise it's a practice you know, it's a practice.

Yeah, but we have all experienced so much trauma and things that we did not you know as a society He right that we did not realize was trauma, it was things that we just thought was normal. Like, that's just the way you do things. That's how how it is. But now in hindsight, right, the doctors and psychologists or whatever therapists are like, You know what? Actually, yeah, no, you shouldn't have been treating your children that way. Or you shouldn't have been talking to your partner that way, or you shouldn't have been, you know, you it was not okay for your parents to tell you to do X, Y, and Z. Like, that's not okay. So

that hurt people hurt people.

Yes, hurt people do hurt people. But okay, you had said earlier that you have compassion for this person that you were involved with. And I feel like I'm a compassionate person for everybody out there in the world. But when I was like, thinking about my own story, I was kind of like, I'm not at compassion yet. Like, I'm not trying to, I don't wish ill on this individual in any way, shape, or form. But because I know that they will not change, because I know that this is just them. i It's still even though I know and I recognize and I accept that it is a mental illness. And this is what that person is dealing with. It still makes me angry. Telling you like, I still get angry at the there will be no redemption, there will be no validation for saying something wasn't right. It was just I had to let it go. I had to let it go. I had to walk away. And that's just what it is.

Was it easy to walk away? Like how was it for you to finally get to the point where you needed to walk away?

knew it was I mean, when it finally happened? Yeah, it was just like, peace out. I don't care. You know, I felt like Superwoman, you know, you could do whatever because bring it and I was like, at that point of, I don't care. But it took a long time to get to that. It was a long arduous journey. It was a roller coaster of right. Because I, I just like in hindsight felt like such an idiot, because I would tell the people like this is not right. Hello, does anyone not see this? And literally, everyone was turning there, I felt that everyone was turning their back on me. I felt that everyone was walking away from me. I felt that everyone was saying, you're just overreacting, you're feeling so defensive. You're imagining things, it wasn't that big of a deal. But with those people with my friends, family, whatever, it didn't hurt, like, it wasn't a lasting thing. I did go like, okay, maybe I am. But with the individual with the perpetuator with the abuser, and they were an abuser. It was not it hurt it stung. It was ripping me apart. It was like they were taking nails and just hammering it in because I was like, That is not right. And I, I wanted validation. I wanted to change them. Because I felt like if I could just change them, this would all stop. I can I can make this stop. I could say this, I could do this. I could, I could call them out on what they were doing and what they were saying and how they were behaving. Whereas everyone else is just like walking away. You're like, oh, whatever, that was a crazy thing. Go over here in this corner. But for whatever reason, any at me couldn't let it go. Like I could I was constantly engaging. Okay, I take that back. It wasn't for whatever reason. There was, this is a family situation. And because family was involved, it's not that easy to go, you know, I'm out of here, because I still want to be involved with the family. I still want to come to Christmas dinner and, you know, Easter and let's go shop and whatever. Like just I want it to be part of my family's collective. And and I just, I couldn't like I would say, you know, I had to prep myself every time I had to deal with this individual. And I did I had to like shut down and not I was trying not to I feed them not to give them ammunition to attack me to same thing, but it didn't matter. Like, it didn't matter. And I didn't, I did not like myself, I didn't like how I felt I didn't like anything. And I was, like you said, just kind of going inside, you're just shrinking, like shrinking like a little flower just shrinking. But I would have these little bursts of even when I would think, you know, I'm so low, I can't get any lower. I just couldn't let it go. I just would have to say something. I just, even though I knew how upset how aggravating how what the reaction was going to be. But I was hopeful. I was like, Well, no, surely this time, if I say this, if I do this, if I behave this way. It'll banish that because I just didn't want to believe that this was them. This was, this was them. And we had a conversation a couple weeks ago, a couple days ago, I don't know. And we were talking about your aunt. And she was talking about she was I was talking to her and and she was talking about seeing the good in people. And always having that faith and that hope and seeing to seeing the good and not giving up. And I knew I was just kind of like crying inside because I'm like, I can see the good in everybody else. But I can't see the good and this person. Like he just kept making me. I lived it like I'm sorry. And I felt depressed. And I was just like, No. Because that's what I lived with. That's what I kept telling myself like think surely the are a good person they are. And the thing is, they weren't good people. Well, everybody, do anybody else that they would come in contact with like, that does. Awesome. And I was like, What am I seeing here? Like? I don't know, I have had no experience here were one or two, but not the 20 episodes of awesome, wonderful, great that you had. That's you don't like it or not. So it became like, it's just me, it's just me. Why are you doing this too, because they were doing it to everybody else. Right, but everyone else could just step away. And me and my dingdong reality was like, well, it wasn't even dinner. I was I was there. I was caring for my parents. I couldn't just go like, you know, I'm out of here. I was like, No, I took on that role. And so I had to deal with everything else that came along with it. So it wasn't just an easy thing. And, and it was family. And that's a whole different thing. Like when you're dealing with family. Sometimes it's not just that easy to go. I'm out of here. Because there are you know, everyone else is telling, you know, just it's not that bad. Like keep the hot, you know, go back in there. It's it's not that bad. Because, you know, if you step away, you can't cook to Christmas dinner. Like is that are you willing to give that up? Like are you really like trying to say you don't want to come to our gatherings and you don't want to be at the house because you know that person is going to be there but you're not going to be there. And we love having you like you're so fun. Come on, like just ignore that. Don't worry about it. I'll just like fine, how to do it again, knockout show up. But no, but I just also wanted to like somebody. Somebody acknowledged that what I am saying and what I'm seeing and whatever experiencing is not normal, like this. Not a normal thing. And no one would talk about that. No one No one.

Did you feel isolated?

I

was in that situation.

Isolated? Yes. Yeah. Cuz I couldn't say here's the wound. See, I'm bleeding. And I have a video of them stabbing me and then pouring salt and then kicking me down like it was it was like, oh, yeah, they did that. And then again, oh, but that wasn't you know, just let it go. Just let it go. Like don't antagonize it. Just let it go. And then everybody Anybody else is running around just being funny and just Haha, just laugh just laugh. I'm like, I don't want that. So it was hard and, and then the lies like this person lie like we just straight up lie like that, like right they would tell me, Hey, can you go to the store and get some you know, sodas or something for the party or whatever for the house. Okay, go store and get that when you're back then somebody would complain like, Oh, why did you get these sodas? That person to go get this done? We'll be like yeah, why did you get that? I'd be like, wait what? You said it will get the I don't know what you're talking about? No I did it. Yep. You told me I didn't even want this so that you said you wanted this soda? Why are you? How do I let that go? How do I go? Oh, okay, I'm misunderstood. I know like, here's the paper like I wrote down exactly what you said. Oh my god, and it was always something like that. Oh, can you? I don't worry, don't be there. I'm gonna go and take care of this situation with our parents. Okay, and then my mom would call me Hey, I'm supposed to be somewhere at a doctor's appointment. Yeah, so said they're gonna be there. No, they're, they're not here. They said you were gonna do it. I just yet to them. I mean, what are you talking about? Like, no, they said, they were gonna be there like, oh, shoot, mom, hold on, okay, we, you know, and then I don't have time to be like, well, let me I'll deal with them later. Like, I gotta get you to your appointment, because we're going to be late and you know, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, Labor's like, I'm gonna like you said, you got to know I did it. I didn't. I didn't say that. You must have missed you misunderstood. Miss understand you. You did so it was constantly it was that? And then what are you saying stuff to everybody else? And they just look at me like, well, I didn't promise to take anybody anywhere. I wasn't. I really know what you're talking about. Like, yeah, okay, whatever. Like is mom okay? Yeah, she's fine. All right. And I'm like, no, they lie. They said they were going to be somewhere. Well, maybe they just got caught up somewhere. No, they did not get caught up somewhere. They said they were going to do something. They did not do that. Like, you know, it wasn't. And then if you if you get caught up, you know what, there are steps to Hey, so and so. I know. I said I was going to be there. But sure we're on the other side of town. We're not going to be able to make it in time. Do you think you can go and take care of this? Oh, yeah, sure. Okay. No, that response is I didn't say that. Oh, like, there's no

accountability.

None. There's none. I can Nandy none, zilch, zero. And it didn't matter. It didn't matter. The amount of chaos hurt, pain involved with others. There was zero accountability. Which boggled my mind, because I'm such a if I do something wrong, who I am so sorry. And let me fix this. And I will walk you through that right there. They did on? Yeah. Yeah.

It's like subconsciously, energetically, they know. They can target you. Like within five minutes. They know who they can do that with and who they can't. And it's crazy.

I know. I know. I know. But then it became a nap. It became me. But what I told myself at the end was, you know that saying, you can't change can't change the stripes of a tiger. Hmm. Right. Like, that's just what they are. That's just they are a tiger. Or you can't change a lion. They gotta eat, right? They're a predator. They have to eat. You can't be mad at them because they're just doing what they are born and bred to do. So when the scorpion and the frog Yeah, like, exactly. It was totally that and when I heard that, and I saw that and I thought about that. That was my, oh, why do I keep jumping in front of the, you know, Lion saying here but being vegetarian. It's good for you. We'll all be happy if you just vegetables. Don't look at little lamb. Like I'm not a little I'm a little flexible, you know, like, come on. But so that I was like, Wait, charity, you're the idiot, you just keep going back up in there and going back up there and going, and that person's not going to change, nothing you do is going to change. So that was when I said, I don't care. But unlike yourself, I had to completely cut this person off. Like there was no, because it was years, it was years and years and years and years and years and years and years.

They always been like that.

Yes, they had. But there were periods of time where I wasn't involved with them. So it didn't matter. But it all came to home when I had returned home to take care of my parents, so I could not avoid them, like couldn't go like, whatever. I'm like California living my best life, I don't really care what you do. I gotta be like everybody else, just like, Whatever, I'm going to my own house. I was like, I had a key, you know, going in there and dealing with it. So but the, the pain was, so let's sell deep, it hurt. It hurt a lot. And it kept hurting and hurt me to my core. And I couldn't explain this to my other family members. Like they weren't getting it. They were just like, like, okay, yeah, we kind of we saw that. But like, what, they just let it go. But they were not receiving it full long, like I was walking on and I was just getting punched full on to the face. Like they were able to dodge stuff. And just, and they knew like later after I said why I was taking the steps and the actions that I were they were like, Yeah, that makes sense. Like, yeah, she didn't do that. Yeah, that did have this like, but when I was reaching out and saying how you know, or like, backing me up, like, Come on, guys, let's do this. We can, you know, take them down together unity, they were like, you go right on ahead. We're right behind you. Like, okay, do bed like you believe? Again?

When did you find out it was gaslighting? Like when did you put a name?

I cut them off. Like I took them off first. Like I just went cold turkey and just like then I still couldn't let it go. So I was looking at the Internet, right? And not the Internet gives you information that there are articles coming up. And they're like, and I was like, and narcissism was a thing. It was a word that was coming up like a lot. And I'm reading through it. And I was like, Oh, yes, yes. Yeah, like, narcissist. That's the word they are total. Like, I finally like, there was a word for it. remember going to my siblings and like I'm like yelling in the phone. Like are you? You know, she couldn't even talk to me at that point. Because I was just so she's gonna talk to you later. Then she called me and said, Okay, she looked at what I had sent. And I was like, yeah, yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. Okay, like, I hear you now. Like, I get it. So,

just like awareness is powerful.

It really is. It's, it's giving it a name. It's not in your mind. You're not making it on love. You're not being defensive. You're not overreacting. It's a real thing.

That's a real thing.

It's a very, very real thing gaslighting and you know what, okay, so this happened with a sibling and but it can happen to you with your partner. But it can also happen at work and with your children, your peers and your your boss, your own boss. Oh yeah, I can do this. And so then I would say like, you feel really hopeless and helpless in that kind of situation. Like I really wouldn't know what to tell you to do with that because that's a little trickier to

expose. But I don't think it's exposure I think that's just it from what I've been learning. There's no way to change them. There's nothing that can change them I guess the me to movement I always thought was them putting the light on gaslighting is what I felt because they were all gaslight they were all gaslit at to some degree, right? It was. You do this to get something and then if you talk about it, we're going to shame you and tell you that you're overreacting you're over sent They've or that didn't happen. I mean, it was a lot of that going on. And I felt like they're, you know, unless they do something that you can legally get them on, there's not much you can do to change the behavior. The only way that I've been understanding, and I'm sure there's other ways, but the only way that I have understood is for me to have more self love, self assurance, self worth self esteem. And then it's easier to just say, No, that's not okay. And to be unaffected, there's like this energetic tie to because even when I would stand in my power, well, even when I would throw up a boundary, because internally, I was still not sure about myself, I was questioning like, am I being too boundaried? Am I not being enough? Was that the right? It would just fall over? Yeah. Until I was totally sure that in my authentic self, there's no way that that is that behavior is okay. With a boundary stick. And I think me actually going through with the divorce was the final boundary that stuck, because I always said I would never threatened divorce unless I meant it. And I didn't that whole time. I never said the word. He'd throw it out every other week. But I did not. And then when I did, it was done. So for me, that was a big, energetic reminder that I can hold a boundary for myself, no matter how bad I mean, it's still terrible. The gaslighting goes on, it's gotten better, because I don't engage. I don't pick up the rope. I just stick to the facts. And every communication we have is written so that I can take screenshots and say this is what was said. Right? Because, and, you know, people have this, like that happened. I forget sometimes, you know, but I'm the first to go. Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me right now, I will admit that I didn't do that with him. I would never apologize to him. Because he was, it didn't have any energy left. It was like, if I apologize, he's gonna take full reign over my acre. You know, if I do if I say I'm sorry, it's all over for me. So with him, I didn't with other people in my life. I will say, I made a mistake. Yes. Yes. You know, and I apologize. And maybe this is how we can do things moving forward. Or I should have paid attention or I overbooked or, you know, anyway, so I think just really standing in our power.

We did the same. I would never apologize to this person, either. Nope. Would it because you're tired, you're exhausted, you're kind of beat down. It's just like, but having that energy, stick to it. It takes a lot.

It takes a community, man. In some cases. Now, I needed my girlfriend's to hold my hand and walk with me. I needed to know that somebody was actually not thinking I was a pile. You know, I needed someone to believe in me. Because I didn't have enough obviously.

Okay, I didn't have a big community. I had a community of one. And that was my husband. But he's my biggest champion. And he saw He saw exactly what I saw. So I think maybe that was kept empower me to get back in there and thinking I could change nice because not he saw it and he knew that that was not right. And, and I didn't have to say twice. I didn't have to convince him. Why when I said, You know what, I've had enough. I'm done. I'm cutting this person off. He wasn't like, well, you know what, maybe for your mom and dad say he should get up here. Yeah, let's do it. And it wasn't Yeah, you do it. He was like, let's do it. We're gonna do it. So it's just like, you just like, like, at least I got you so I don't like nobody else. felt bad. Like, I I thought I was gonna lose all of my other brothers and sisters having a you know, by saying this and being so stern. But I didn't. And so but there was that fear. Like, I didn't know I didn't know what you think people are going to hug. You know, when you fall down, gonna hug you and go like, it's okay. That's not always what happens. Right? It's like, just suck it up and get back in print. Just say it's an outdoor, it's not a big deal. So it's like, Okay, fine. But yeah, gotten to that point and, you know, whatever. So, there you go. Okay. How are you feeling now? Feel great. That it good, good point that we've gotten it out of our system

and been able to share some experience strength and hope.

Yes, experience. That's, I'm glad that you said that because those are awesome. I have to keep reminding myself. It is experience strength and we are trying to impart experience, strength, and hope. And we hope that, you know, we can build a community of people that through sharing our experience, it just gives them hope to change their narrative.

Yeah, expanded perspectives to connect and relate.

So, okay, but I have my last little words that I just when I told you that, like, I want to make sure that we say this to everybody that everyone that's listening, that you are not to blame for experiencing, or having dealt with gaslighting. Nothing, nothing you personally do causes the person or abuser to behave that way. They just are that way. are like, it's not you, they may be saying to you, like, look at what you made me do look at how, you know, like, if you would have just done this, I wouldn't, you know, be saying these things, but no, like, this is that person, this is their choice to speak to you in that manner, their choice to, you know, say the things that they are saying to you. And finally, you won't be able to change what they're doing. That's

the only change is you taking that energy that you spend on them to yourself, for self love, self worth, self acceptance.

And this is for everyone. People that hearing the perspective of two women, but this happens to men to happen absolutely does happen. It just happens to everyone. So

at some point, and not all gaslighting is narcissism. No, some of us are just used to doing that. Yeah, I have to watch myself. All right. All right, charity. Well, that was awesome. Thank you, everybody that listened all the way through and stuck in with us.

All right. We'll see you guys in two weeks.

All right. Bye for now.

Yay. Thank you for listening to being effing honest with your hosts, Jennifer Wong and charity Rodriguez. Subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you have a suggestion, question or topic you want us to talk about, connect with us at www being effing honest.com And until next time, we hope you're always being effing honest